IE7 and competing on features

Posted by Kelson on Mon, 05/16/2005 - 16:13Spreading Firefox

According to IEBlog, IE7 will have tabs. OK, everyone who’s surprised, raise your hands.

Anyone?

Bueller?

It seems obvious that every feature in Firefox 1.0 that has been used to promote the browser to the general audience will show up in the next version of Internet Explorer. That’s just common sense. People left your product to get X, so you provide X yourself in hopes of luring them back. And since Firefox is developed openly, the IE team can see what they’re planning and try to guess what the next big draw will be.

So Firefox 1.1 will probably not be able to compete with IE7 on feature set, at least as far as the end-user is concerned. And since designers have to respond to the market (for all our “Spread Firefox” and “Browse Happy” buttons, we don’t really have much effect on what browser people are using), improved standards compliance has never been a major factor in adoption.

What does that leave?

  • Security. This is a tricky one, particularly with the recent publicity over vulnerabilities. We need to emphasize more secure and not totally secure, which is what people are hearing and debunking.
  • Open Source/Free Software. Only a small portion of the audience cares about this. Too many people don’t know the difference between Free Software and free software.
  • Not Microsoft. Microsoft has ticked off a lot of people with their business practices, especially in Europe. And Americans love to root for the underdog. (Remember when little Microsoft was going to save us from the big bad IBM?) Probably not a long-term strategy, though.
  • Compatibility. IE doesn’t run on Linux, and the Mac version is basically dead. Firefox is fast becoming the default browser on a number of Linux distributions, and while the Mac version isn’t perfectly integrated, they’re working on it. So for someone like me, who uses Windows, Linux, and MacOS on a regular basis, a common browser has strong appeal (even if I do keep looking for the preferences in the wrong place).

(Cross-posted from K-Squared Ramblings.)


Submitted by FJR on Mon, 05/23/2005 - 02:02.

I think we're missing out some interesting point:
Some web pages still look better in IE than in any other browser. This may be our bigger concern. By this, I mean trying to convince web developers that they should make web pages focused on FF as the main browser. That they look good in Firefox at first. I think that if pages look and feel better in FF, people will consider it over IE.
Also, it sucks when you have to download some plug-ins when you first install FF, cause it's tedious and... eehrr, boring??

Cheers
FJR

Submitted by orangeacid on Sun, 05/22/2005 - 20:09.

We need to play up extensions. I think it is incredebly unlikely that IE7 will include a community as active as this. Even if extensions (or plugins) are made, MS will probabally try and make people pay for them...


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orange|acid

Submitted by JakeBlog on Sun, 05/22/2005 - 04:07.

My friend said he was going back to IE when they got tabs.

Submitted by jacen on Sat, 05/21/2005 - 03:00.

It's Opera, not FireFox that Microsoft is copying.

Firefox doesn't (yet) have a true tabbed window system. Opera does. I'm sure IE will as well.

And I hope FireFox does one day (without extenstions)

Submitted by Fred.cpp on Sun, 05/22/2005 - 19:15.

Maybe If you enable advanced tabs preferences and set to Singlewindow mode you get that you want. no extensions needed.
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Fred.cpp

Submitted by ivanii on Fri, 05/20/2005 - 19:40.

Yes, you are probably right on the feature set. However, we can make Firefox something cool, right?

MS can't do that. IE will always be simple tool.

So, then, it is: cool vs tool :)

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Microsoft has never won a war in development against anyone. But it proved to be master of marketing. Don't repeat the history. Don't downplay the marketing.

Submitted by Paeniteo on Sun, 05/22/2005 - 12:23.

For IE to be considered a "tool", they would have to incorporate vast improvements both in standards support and in usability, IMHO.
"Tool" is a much too friendly word for IE.

Firefox is a tool for me, e.g. aiding webdesign with the Webdeveloper toolbar.

I don't think that we want to reduce Firefox to "coolness". (It *is* cool, though ;-)

Submitted by Dracos on Wed, 05/18/2005 - 15:24.

Even though tabbed browsing has been confirmed (though primitive in the initial beta), I'm sure MS will do its best to make it difficult or counter-intuitive for the benefit of the average user.

They also claim to be implementing alpha channel support for png, but in the process will probably make gamma correction worse in order to keep designers from using it.

I was told a while ago that IE6 had native SVG support during the beta cycle, but something happened and MS yanked it. Don't hold your breath for SVG in IE7.

IE7 (aka SP3) isn't meant to compete against Firefox; it can only be installed on a fraction of Windows systems. They simply can't make it standards compliant. The main purpose of IE7 is to steal the spotlight from Firefox.

If MS' latest product schedule is to believed, Longhorn will be released within a year of of IE7 final. At that point, IE again becomes abandonware as MS mans the upgrade carousel.

They claim to be fixing known CSS bugs, but it seems to me that they are fixing them individually instead of making global fixes. IE7 will only become a new headache for web designers who have yet another browser version to detect.

Submitted by jb_gfx on Wed, 05/18/2005 - 14:27.

New version of IE (6.0 SPx, 7.0) or not even compatible with Windows, while FireFox is!

Remember that FF can be installed on old version of MS' OS : Win9x, 2000, NT. Latest versions of IE can't! So FireFox is a good choice for all the old MS-OSes users who need a modern and powerfull browser, when the editor of these OSes offer no support to his customers.

Submitted by Umko on Fri, 05/20/2005 - 14:36.

That is very true and should be considered very carefully by the Firefox execs.

Is the completely shameful bug in Win9x and Me that shows the standard Win icon instead of the Firefox logo fixed in the new nightlies and potentially in FF1.1?

This silly bug puts people off! A great pity.

Submitted by Pasta2000 on Wed, 05/18/2005 - 16:10.

Since IE7 will only work on machines with Windows XP / SP2 or better, can we start saying that for everyone with Windows 2000 or older that IE7 will not be free and that is will cost them several hundred dollars to get IE7?

Submitted by Troels Nybo on Wed, 05/18/2005 - 17:06.

But be careful. I am one of those people who are convinced that Microsoft will have to do something about this. There are millions of computers out there with elderly versions of Windows that for technical, economical or philosophical reasons will not be upgraded to XP. Firefox (and other members of the Gecko family), Opera, Lynx etc. work excellently on those boxes and Microsoft know this. Will they just sit back and watch the competitor browsers win market share in this segment? I don't think so.

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Walk in beauty

Submitted by Pasta2000 on Wed, 05/18/2005 - 20:27.

It may change like you said, but it is true for now. We should take advantage of this while we can. Then, later on if/when Microsoft changes IE7 to work with the old OS, we can pound on Microsoft again for following Firefox. Sort of like news reports are doing now with IE7 and tabs. It can be a win win situation for Firefox PR.

Submitted by Pasta2000 on Tue, 05/17/2005 - 15:27.

IE7 can be a clone of Firefox when it comes to features, but Firefox will always have a Security Advantage. This security advantage is one of the reasons why Firefox is getting into the business market. Security needs to be stressed more as IE becomes more like Firefox. The latest post at my blog hammers this issue.

Blogs for Firefox: Security Score Card

Submitted by Paeniteo on Tue, 05/17/2005 - 11:39.

So Firefox 1.1 will probably not be able to compete with IE7 on feature set



You mean that just because IE might (as it's all still just marketing-babble) get closer to some of FF's features, we won't be able to compete with IE anymore?



I would say that FF (even 1.0.x) will still be lightyears ahead of anything IE7 might offer.

E.g. IE7 might have Tabs, but will it have the flexibility offered by the various tab-extensions? Or will it just be implemented heartlessly to be in the features-list..?

Submitted by minghong on Tue, 05/17/2005 - 01:50.

e.g. CSS, DOM, XHTML, MathML, PNG (not just alpha channel, but also gamma correction), XForms (on going), SVG (on going), and [you name it]...


SFX@CP.NET

Submitted by Kelson on Tue, 05/17/2005 - 05:57.

...but how do you sell end-users on standards support?

Submitted by dylanf on Mon, 05/16/2005 - 23:07.

If IE is going to have tabbed browsing, whats going to happen to all those browsers built on IE that have tabs incorporated?

Oh dear, Microsoft will have just sh** on some of there supporters who develop for Windows. Whats New.

Submitted by RedNovember on Mon, 05/16/2005 - 18:16.

I would say make the default skin better looking, or just use Abstract PC. I always use that and I haven't looked back.
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Nothing can stop me, for I am Nothing

Submitted by gordholio on Mon, 05/16/2005 - 21:55.

I tried the Abstract Theme and it IMHO is not quite ready to surpass Qute. The tabs are not formed properly (don't look like proper tabs, but look a bit ugly). There are other minor issues, but the tab thing turned me off.
Qute should be the default I think.

Submitted by Pasta2000 on Mon, 05/16/2005 - 17:32.

Firefox has a faster rendering engine.

People have the need for speed.

Submitted by sanderson7 on Fri, 05/20/2005 - 20:23.

My firefox used to be painfully slow until I added the -turbo flag. Now it loads in a few seconds. I've often wondered why the -turbo flag is even there. Shouldn't it be enabled by default?

Submitted by motovt on Tue, 05/17/2005 - 00:56.

long live FireFox. I have stickers on my car, a shirt, and soon, I will be ordering the FireFox plush toy.

Submitted by Kris Silver on Tue, 05/17/2005 - 17:02.

and being debated constructively. I've commented before on this many a times and feel the competition or at least it's powers are both being underestimated. Many believed IE7 would not have tabs, improved security, and improved web standards. It's slowly becoming clear all of these are going to be what M$ are focusing on improving, or at least marketing with IE7.

Of course it's no coincidence, it's stealing many of the core valued things FF has managed to pitch itself on and succeed. If IE7 doesnt do it any better, you can bet they'll convince many many people it is, especially with it's past history in moulding people and businesses to what they want, and what they'll convince them of with their corporate tactics.

I think Mozilla really need to step up the game and despite being open source, bring out some stunning new things, features, additions, and changes that will keep this constantly fresh, and not in any way stale.

Extensions is something I think FF should be pitched on more. There's hundreds if not thousands of good one's out there. Making people realise they can choose the features and settings they want very simply, meaning the browser is as basic or powerful as they wish, and not bogged down with features they dont need, understand, or want.

The thousands working as volunteers to constantly build and improve extensions in an open community is a huge force, and something IE will have a far harder job of competing in.

On the topic of appearance, there is a very small but effective new addition of the cute menu extension, that makes the navigation toolbar and such appear like Office XP. It carries a swish but clear blue backround on the options, add's clear good looking icons, and future versions evem make tabs appear clearer and more attractive. It even gives you a Firefox logo throbber.

All this from a very small, simple extension, that makes the browser far clearer, for me that should be at least pushed a lot further, and perhaps even put into the core. We're always making things look better, and we can bet IE7 will try to, this is a simple, small scale improvement!

Submitted by dbhaun29 on Fri, 05/20/2005 - 18:32.

I believe Internet Explorer 7 to be a second hybird browser. It will also end closed scource Internet Explorers.

Submitted by Kgames on Fri, 05/20/2005 - 23:18.

I heard that IE7 won't even support CSS2. FireFox users can use this to their advantage if it turns out to be true in the end.